Curse

The Drunkard · Nov 10, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

The market for items has deteriorated because of invincible builds. While I've pretty much given up on the idea that Anet will nerf them, the least we can do is raise a big enough [email protected] so that GW2 won't have any of them.

Improvavel · Nov 10, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's nothing wrong with solo farming. It just shouldn't be so efficient that it crowds out other alternatives. Same for speed clears; there's nothing wrong with doing things quickly, but when a single approach is both efficient enough to crowd out alternatives and skilless, something should be done.

The problem is that the game doesn't really balance time spent with rewards.

UW with a general team with 2 front liners/4 mid liners/ 2 back liners (typical PvP balanced team) will take ages to finish UW.

Consumables help stuff to be made faster, but at the same time also make those things pretty much mindless.

Elite areas simply aren't designed well.

The Skeleton of Dhuum + quests changes nerfed the SF UWSC, but they have done nothing to buff balanced play. And when balanced play can include consumables, PvE only skills and stuff like Shadow Form, it is hard to define a balanced team.

PvE as long ago moved away from the pleasant PvP balanced team configuration, and it isn't about being skill at managing your resources and team synergies but at AI and Skills/Consumables abuse.

So, yep UWSC has been nerfed. But has balanced play with using no degenerated gaming elements (like consumables/PvE-only skills/ broken skills like SF) been buffed? The answer is no. It has never been.

So basically all these things only accomplish keeping the "old fortunes" bigger than the new ones (unless u get some lucky mini polar bear or something of the sort), even if those fortunes were made by req 8, unconditional 15% weps, 55 abuse, etc, that can no longer be replicated.

Shame that my beloved hammer W/Me smite farmer got caught on the crossfire. The summoner build is just as profitable but a hour long farm isn't as attractive as a 15-20 min farm that could be used to kill a small amount of free time.

EDIT: Is also fun reading about "how degenerate invincible builds" killed the "economy".

Anet killed most of the economy with the introduction of inscriptions. HM gave it a hand afterward. All the rest of the economy was created by again by Anet, with drops based on badly designed areas that take hours to complete like DoA, or some item that only drop randomly on a chest on the end of hours long dungeons/UW/FoW.

Lishy · Nov 10, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

In short, I'm just going to tell you to read X Dr Pepper X's post.

You need to think deeper about things than current mob mentality.

Improvavel · Nov 10, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

In short, I'm just going to tell you to read X Dr Pepper X's post.

You need to think deeper about things than current mob mentality.

I agree.

Actually, people don't even know what a normal team is and/or are unprepared to play on one, because in a balanced team every single character is non-linear and has 2 or more responsibilities.

For example, a Monk has to both heal and protect - how many ppl can do that?

A frontliner has to both deal damage, body block, choose who to fight, etc.

A midliner like an ele has to deal damage and then help on defense and/or offense of the team.

Etc, etc.

kazjun · Nov 10, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

You're wrong here. People pug because its quick and hard to fail. You change it so that it takes 2 hours and plenty of places they can die and waste all of their time and people will pug less not more.

This is same as ursan was. Hard to fail with SF so they are willing to take any stranger that shows up. Also quite fast so if that random you picked up was bad, np, you only wasted about 15 mins.

You take away the set build that any idiot could run, then you're going to insist that they run the builds you ping and that they do well first time through or you just won't take them again. Eventually, you'd end up only going with friends or guildies and only the guys that have no guild or enough friends will pug. This will only happen quicker if you make the run take longer. No one nowadays wants to spend 2 hours doing a zone to fail at the last quest and get booted. Hell, no wants to spend 2 hours in a zone full stop unless theres some awesome reward.

Don't believe me? Look at DOA. Only full guilds do runs there nowadays that don't use the 600/smite/SF route. Pugs were full there when it was ursan cause you could take anybody and it was quick. Nowadays, no one pugs unless their guild can't come and must don't pug at all cause non-invinci builds either fail massively or take too long. Kill SF/600 smite and DOA really will become dead zones as will most dungeons.

FOW and UW shouldn't be as badly affected cause they aren't that hard and there's always chances for ectos and shards as well as the end chest. Most dungeons only got endchests, and only a few dungeon's endchests drop anything worth while. Nerf SF and all the other 'invinci' builds you want, just don't be under the delusion that this will suddenly make people pug more. Doing two hours with friends or guildies, cool. And if you fail, you can rib them for the next couple of runs. Doing two hours with people you don't know and could be complete idiots, all the time waiting to see where they're going to fail? No thanks.

Martin Alvito · Nov 10, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caligo

You can't honestly believe that it's fair to nerf an elite skill because an outside source improves it's originally intended effect... That's insane. You may as well claim that people with PCs that are better than the minimum requirements shouldn't be allowed to play.

So, there's a skill and it has a penalty. That penalty used to mean something, and as a result the skill was fine. Now the penalty doesn't mean anything due to a design change, and the skill isn't fine. Simple.

Sure, it's not as broken as SF. But nerfing SF and leaving OF is rather pointless for a good chunk of the content people use SF for, including UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The problem is that the game doesn't really balance time spent with rewards.

Which is why the economy and PvE balance are as screwed up as they are. 95% of the game's outposts are totally dead because people have already completed the content, and have moved to the most efficient farm for whatever they're after. A system like the Zaishen quest rewards that creates congregation focal points is a great idea for addressing low activity levels. But it's useless if the quest rewards aren't valuable enough to draw skilled players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So basically all these things only accomplish keeping the "old fortunes" bigger than the new ones (unless u get some lucky mini polar bear or something of the sort), even if those fortunes were made by req 8, unconditional 15% weps, 55 abuse, etc, that can no longer be replicated.

Which is exactly the problem. Once people figure out that they're lemmings running on ANet's treadmill, they quit. The game needed a better PvE reward system than it had. Assigning drops was a nice innovation, but insufficient to push PvE above the level of Diablo 2. Which wasn't afraid to admit what it was - a grindfest for gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

Good. The stuff out of that end chest should have been very rare. Easy ecto farming is bad. Need I say more?

There's an argument to be made that killing SF is locking the barn door after the horse is gone, which is what I think you're trying to get at here. But if ANet can't be bothered to take the principled stand, it'll just further confirm that EotN was Nightfall without a decent campaign: sellout content intended to sell copies via power creep with no regard for the long-term health of the game. Too many good gaming companies have killed themselves off that way; you'd think people would learn.

Regulus X · Nov 10, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

no1 cares.. DEATH to UW/FoW/DoA/PvE/GW1! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! *explodes*

Winry Sagara · Nov 10, 2009, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

I disagree with this blanket statement.

OF is fine as is because it only protects against spells. Skills and Attacks still hit, AND there is that horrible movement penalty...

SB is also fine as-is because it doesnt protect against skills and attacks either, just spells.

SF is broken because it protects against spells and attacks. The only way to hurt a perma-sin is by touching or no-target-specified AoE, which arent widely used by monsters in the game...

[edit] Also, the other problem with perma-sin is their ability to basically run past everything, kill a target, then move on to next objective. Take Oola's Lab dungeon for example: The perma runs through all of level 1, kills Xien, then picks up the key and moves to level 2. On level 2, they run past everything, kill golem, pick up key then move to level 3. If alone, the perma only has to kill the TPS golem to get reward...Its the same with almost everything a perma can run, i.e. they skip everything in between and simply get the rewards.

With a 600/Smite team, or a balanced team, they have to kill everything in-between...

This is, exactly, what I think abount this annoying things.

Test Me · Nov 10, 2009, 08:27 AM // 08:27

The way they nerfed UW is horrible for "balanced teams" and i assume none of the people here advising nerfs to the gimmik farming builds have actually tried and successfully completed UW with a balanced team since the change.

So, before you talk get ingame pug or form your balanced team, clear all of uW and then you may have an opinion on the matter. Until then you have no clue what you're talking about.

I've played all weeked with balanced teams from my alliance and i've pugged and in 2.5 days and tons of tries not once not a single team of all those where able to go past Servants of Grenth. Do you know what 5 skellies spawning with the rest of the normal spawns do to a ballanced team?

I think the nerf is a horrible one. It made it impossible to do even on NM without gimmik builds and ANet added "monster skills" that just make the AI cheat and don't go well with the existing mechanics as it is impossible to do anything against the skills of the skellies. The only option is to outheal their crazy 400/500 party wide damage spikes (given 4/5 skellies pop) not to mention that skellies are not the only things that pop and that all that damage comes from a single skill if a skeleton in NM, while they have a second one just as good. And they're the same in NM and HM.

So good luck with your balanced teams theories. I am really dissapointed by the AI cheat they've added to ruin UW for all. They could have added an enchant removal that went through SF with normal game mechanics but no they chose to add instant party death damage through no exsiting game mechanic so any sort of damage prevention GW players have is useless.

So go try it first and talk after.

lutz · Nov 10, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

QueenofDeath · Nov 10, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable

And these high end areas shouldn't be profitable in that sense. Only the looted rare items should have a draw down in these areas. Only rare loots should drop from these areas and at the very ends of the area not all over the place like ectoes. They should make ectoes even more uncommon also so they will be more valueable but remove them as a need for the Obsidian armors.

Also to keep the elite areas populated make all rare items that drop in them "no drop/no trade" except for your own account.

) That way anybody that really wants the skins in them will have to get them themselves in a group or with heroes/henchies which they should also open these areas up for.

It's always been the ability to trade between other players and over farming because of that that has ruined so many of these games. Make players actually adventure for their stuff instead of buying gold online to pay for it. By making most everything good no drop no trade you will eliminate a lot of the gold selling in them. Not saying everything has to be no drop no trade only the best stuff, players can still trade resources for garbage collectors gear/armor, but, not for anything of major worth. The other thing would be to add DECAY to the games equipment (nothing lasts forever in the real world why should it in an alternate world). With decay nobody will have much wealth they can horde or stockup on rare gear and sell it for 1000's of plat. If they are going to leave the trading game in then bring in DECAY! YES! Best idea ever.

)

Kali Magdalene · Nov 10, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

I see hope springs eternal.

Targren · Nov 10, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

an attempt to shut the anti-SF crowd.

I'm fairly sure that, at this point, nothing short of a shotgun blast to the bonce will accomplish that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenOfDeath

The other thing would be to add DECAY to the games equipment (nothing lasts forever in the real world why should it in an alternate world)

Because decay mechanics in games invariably suck? The average MMO seems too much like a job already (thankfully GW managed to avoid that) to have to do things like making a monthly frigging weapons budget. "Accountant Wars" sounds really really boring.

rkubik · Nov 10, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I think we all need to remember that GW is a dying game and some people play the game just to do speed clears or run people from point A to B because they feel they have no other challenges in the game. Without that ability there would be many people who just wouldn't play anymore. While I do not agree with a super fast speed clear I think A-net is trying to find that middle point where they can try and please everyone and still keep their player base until GW2 comes out. While I still enjoy the game I feel it is a very fragile point for A-net where a major change could ultimately affect future sales and the success of their company. It is a business and they are here to make money and every decision needs to be caluculated to try and get the best result for them and their players. While some changes have taken time I think history shows that for the most part A-net has done some good things when the players ask or their is a concern.

Stop The Storm · Nov 10, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

i love people that cry about shadow form, but confess to never using the skill.... well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

see where im going?

if you dont like the skill... dont use it. simples.

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

What are you smoking bro

FoW HM takes about an hour to clear using a balanced setup. UW as long as everyone knows what to do (mostly: don't take quests randomly) is rather easy except for two or even one of the quests. To call these areas "incredibly hard" is just wrong and incorrect.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 10, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

You might complain if Mc Donald's was the only place you could eat at.

Complaining doesn't make the issue any less valid,broken is broken.

Lishy · Nov 10, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Right... Right... Because something is easy for a "good group" as you call it though, does not mean a "good" group is easy to come by though.
Anet needs to balance UW difficulty and promote normal clears before they nuke the farms. But there must be something that prevents them from doing so. Or perhaps it is Dhuum who will remedy this.

Deakon · Nov 10, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays. So what if Joe Farmer has 5 stacks of ecto in storage? He can use the money to change the pixels on his screen or buy useless items like rare minipets, rare armor, rare weapons etc. etc. None of which gives him an advantage over other players. This whole argument over "game-breaking" skills is stupid. Nothing is broken. The existence of UWSC hasn't prevented me from doing anything I want to do or have anything I want to have. Let it rest already.

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays. So what if Joe Farmer has 5 stacks of ecto in storage? He can use the money to change the pixels on his screen or buy useless items like rare minipets, rare armor, rare weapons etc. etc. None of which gives him an advantage over other players. This whole argument over "game-breaking" skills is stupid. Nothing is broken. The existence of UWSC hasn't prevented me from doing anything I want to do or have anything I want to have. Let it rest already.

I don't mind posting and reposting this:

What is playing a game well about? It's about making optimal choices leading to winning the game. If those choices are fun to make, victory will be entertaining both to achieve and to play for, which combines to make what is known as a fun game.

I have an example for you. If Word of Healing is better than Healing Breeze, then if the choice is between those two, you'd be stupid to choose Healing Breeze. The problem is, what if Word of Healing didn't just heal, but made you invulnerable? It would still be better than Breeze, but it would be so good that it makes the game boring since it's too easy. There's no challenge left, except meta-challenges like speedclearing some elite area one minute faster than some other team, or dumb shit like solo running some dungeon in 7 minutes, or even better, paying someone else to do it. Which is boring and not what GW is supposed to be about. But you'd still be stupid to choose Breeze.

And oh hey that's just what Shadow Form does to GW right now. It makes you choose between stupid and boring. Neither option makes for a fun game, as I explained above.

Here's where I know what you will say next.

What if you enjoy inferior skills? Yeah, there are people that like to intentionally or not play crappy skills or builds, using stupid tactics and generally be retarded. I don't.

What if you want to make your own challenge by intentionally picking bad builds? Well, apart from the obvious difficulty of finding a team for anything that isn't the Zaishen quest of the day, even more so if you tell everyone that they'll be playing a worse build than the PvXwiki flavor of the month, that challenge should be provided by the game, not by yourself. That is what balanced gameplay is all about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Right... Right... Because something is easy for a "good group" as you call it though, does not mean a "good" group is easy to come by though.

It doesn't need to be a good group. If you can play a HM mission successfully (most people can), you can get through FoW. If you can do the above and also abstain from taking every quest as soon as you see it, you can get through UW, with the exception of one single quest.